Ep 162 | Jean-Baptiste Fressoz
Jean-Baptiste Fressoz: “Always Adding More: The Unpopular Reality about Energy Transitions”
Show Summary
The vision of a carbon-free, net-zero society is often framed around the promise of transitioning away from fossil fuels. But what can we learn from past “energy transitions” that might inform how feasible – or unrealistic – this vision actually is?
Today, Nate is joined by energy and technology historian Jean-Baptiste Fressoz for a lesson on the importance of understanding the historical trajectory of energy use for realistically navigating the unprecedented challenges humanity faces today – including the dominant narrative of a modern-day “energy transition.” Jean-Baptiste explores the interdependent relationship between different energy sources—from wood to coal to oil—and reveals how this history shapes our hopes for renewables and nuclear energy moving forward.
How can examining the history of energy and material use help us fully grasp the scale at which human societies actually consume them? What role do our current economic systems play in driving an ever-growing demand for new energy sources? In the history of our species, have we ever fully transitioned off of one energy source and replaced it with another – and what does this imply for the hope of a fossil-free future?
About Jean-Baptiste Fressoz
Jean-Baptiste Fressoz is a historian and researcher at the Alexandre Koyré Center of the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris, France. His work focuses on environmental history, technology and energy, and the Anthropocene. He is the author of Happy Apocalypse: A History of Technological Risk, as well as the co-author of the book Chaos in the Heavens: The Forgotten History of Climate Change. Most recently, he wrote More and More and More: An All Consuming History of Energy.
In French, we have a motto that says that a simple drawing is often better than a long explanation. Jean-Marc Jancovici Carbone 4 President
That’s very understandable because with left atmosphere thinking, one of the problems is that you see everything as a series of problems that must have solutions. Iain McGilchrist Neuroscientist and Philosopher
We can’t have hundreds and hundreds of real relationships that are healthy because that requires time and effort and full attention and awareness of being in real relationship and conversation with the other human. Nate Hagens Director of ISEOF
This is the crux of the whole problem. Individual parts of nature are more valuable than the biocomplexity of nature. Thomas Crowther Founder Restor
Show Notes & Links to Learn More
Download transcript00:00 – Jean-Baptiste Fressoz Works + Info, More and More and More: An All-Consuming History of Energy
03:14 – We consume more coal now than we ever have before
03:40 – Britain’s use of coal throughout history
04:19 – Wood use in mines in the 19th century
04:37 – Wood consumption in Britain 19th-20th century
06:11 – John Kerry in Financial Times on the renewable transition being like the industrial revolution
07:03 – Hydraulic powered roof supports in mines
07:43 – Use of coal in China
08:22 – China 1978 Economic Reform
09:42 – Oil’s dependence on steel
10:09 – Oil’s dependence on cement
10:56 – Production of timber over time globally, half of all timber is used as firewood (Page 2)
11:42 – Wood is a key energy source for 2.3 billion people
12:01 – Wood energy today is responsible for twice as much consumption as nuclear energy
12:25 – Charcoal consumption growth
12:56 – Use of charcoal in sub-Saharan Africa + more info
14:33 – Wood consumption in packaging
14:45 – Wood consumption for construction Figure 8
15:27 – Energy consumption in the paper industry
15:43 – Growth in wood energy in Europe and the US
17:40 – Use of steel in the automotive industry + in China
18:15 – China electricity reliance on coal
18:27 – More than half of electric vehicles are in China
19:18 – England closed last operational coal plant
19:49 – Electricity is 40% of emissions
20:22 – Much of electricity is already decarbonized + global electricity production by source
21:09 – Domestic vs total carbon footprint in England and France
21:56 – Olivia Lazard, TGS Episode, TED Talk on Rematerialization
22:34 – The materials used in renewables
23:05 – 1.5 billion cars in the world
24:27 – Maximum Power Principle
26:10 – The link between fossil fuels and economic growth
28:33 – Oil depletion
30:37 – Steel facts
31:19 – Steel’s dependence on coal
31:34 – Asphalt from oil, uses of cement
32:25 – In the 20th century half of cement was produced by the US, now half is produced by China
33:19 – Nuclear energy consumption over time, big nuclear energy countries
33:57 – M.K. Hubbert + ‘carbon pulse’ graph (Figure 30)
34:36 – Nuclear Breeder Reactor
34:49 – The Carbon Pulse
35:30 – History of nuclear energy
36:17 – 1953 Energy Atomic Association brought up climate change
38:32 – Trump and Nuclear Energy
38:51 – France’s 20 year nuclear plant construction project
39:57 – The Great Simplification Animated Movie
40:16 – Energy Blind
41:25 – China and solar energy production + more info
41:32 – Cost of grid-connection of renewable energy in China
41:32 – Variability, intermittence
41:54 – 35-40% of Chinese wind and solar power has been bundled with coal
43:15 – Carbon intensity of GDP over time
44:01 – Material composition of tires
44:07 – Metal composition of smartphones
45:18 – Growth in number of ‘peasants’ + more info
45:54 – There are over 40 million artisanal miners in the world + *37% work in gold mining
46:17 – Spike in the price of gold in 2008
50:12 – The Shock of the Anthropocene, Christophe Bonneuil
51:08 – Most damaging materials come from the military: pesticides, fertilizers, aviation industry
52:10 – Half of emissions until the 1970s came from the US and the UK
53:09 – Creative Destruction
53:36 – Schumpeter
54:58 – Very few materials have decreased in consumption (asbestos, sheep’s wool)
55:33 – Kerosene lamps obsoletion
55:52 – Just the headlight of cars (60 kWh*1.5 billion cars) use as much oil as the economy of the 1900s
56:34 – Chris Keefer
56:58 – Electric Arc Furnaces
57:36 – Hydrogen Steel
58:14 – Hydrogen on TGS
59:45 – Diesel/electric motors are >10x more carbon efficient than steam engine
1:00:02 – Replacing a coal plant with solar panels reduces carbon intensity by >10x
1:00:31 – Jeremy Grantham, TGS Podcast
1:01:38 – Degrowth
1:03:30 – Jimmy Carter’s Energy Crisis Speech 1977
1:03:35 – 1972 Vice President of the European Commission, Henri Simonet’s, report on European Economic Growth
1:06:10 – Cuba after the fall of the USSR
1:08:18 – The Assembly Line, not commonly used today
