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Ep 162  |  Jean-Baptiste Fressoz

Jean-Baptiste Fressoz: “Always Adding More: The Unpopular Reality about Energy Transitions”

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TGS162 Jean-Baptiste Fressoz The Great Simplification

Show Summary

The vision of a carbon-free, net-zero society is often framed around the promise of transitioning away from fossil fuels. But what can we learn from past “energy transitions” that might inform how feasible – or unrealistic – this vision actually is? 

Today, Nate is joined by energy and technology historian Jean-Baptiste Fressoz for a lesson on the importance of understanding the historical trajectory of energy use for realistically navigating the unprecedented challenges humanity faces today – including the dominant narrative of a modern-day “energy transition.” Jean-Baptiste explores the interdependent relationship between different energy sources—from wood to coal to oil—and reveals how this history shapes our hopes for renewables and nuclear energy moving forward.

How can examining the history of energy and material use help us fully grasp the scale at which human societies actually consume them? What role do our current economic systems play in driving an ever-growing demand for new energy sources? In the history of our species, have we ever fully transitioned off of one energy source and replaced it with another – and what does this imply for the hope of a fossil-free future?   

About Jean-Baptiste Fressoz

Jean-Baptiste Fressoz is a historian and researcher at the Alexandre Koyré Center of the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris, France. His work focuses on environmental history, technology and energy, and the Anthropocene. He is the author of Happy Apocalypse: A History of Technological Risk, as well as the co-author of the book Chaos in the Heavens: The Forgotten History of Climate Change. Most recently, he wrote More and More and More: An All Consuming History of Energy.

In French, we have a motto that says that a simple drawing is often better than a long explanation. Jean-Marc Jancovici Carbone 4 President

That’s very understandable because with left atmosphere thinking, one of the problems is that you see everything as a series of problems that must have solutions. Iain McGilchrist Neuroscientist and Philosopher

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This is the crux of the whole problem. Individual parts of nature are more valuable than the biocomplexity of nature. Thomas Crowther Founder Restor

Show Notes & Links to Learn More

00:00 – Jean-Baptiste Fressoz Works + Info, More and More and More: An All-Consuming History of Energy

03:14 – We consume more coal now than we ever have before

03:40 – Britain’s use of coal throughout history

04:19 – Wood use in mines in the 19th century

04:37 – Wood consumption in Britain 19th-20th century

06:11 – John Kerry in Financial Times on the renewable transition being like the industrial revolution

07:03 – Hydraulic powered roof supports in mines

07:43 – Use of coal in China

08:22 – China 1978 Economic Reform

09:42 – Oil’s dependence on steel

10:09 – Oil’s dependence on cement

10:56 – Production of timber over time globally, half of all timber is used as firewood (Page 2)

11:42 – Wood is a key energy source for 2.3 billion people

12:01 – Wood energy today is responsible for twice as much consumption as nuclear energy

12:25 – Charcoal consumption growth

12:56 – Use of charcoal in sub-Saharan Africa + more info

14:33 – Wood consumption in packaging

14:45 – Wood consumption for construction Figure 8

15:27 – Energy consumption in the paper industry

15:43 – Growth in wood energy in Europe and the US

17:40 – Use of steel in the automotive industry + in China

18:15 – China electricity reliance on coal

18:27 – More than half of electric vehicles are in China

19:18 – England closed last operational coal plant

19:49 – Electricity is 40% of emissions

20:22 – Much of electricity is already decarbonized + global electricity production by source

21:09 – Domestic vs total carbon footprint in England and France

21:56 – Olivia Lazard, TGS Episode, TED Talk on Rematerialization

22:34 – The materials used in renewables

23:05 – 1.5 billion cars in the world

24:27 – Maximum Power Principle

26:10 – The link between fossil fuels and economic growth

28:33 – Oil depletion

30:37 – Steel facts

31:19 – Steel’s dependence on coal

31:34 – Asphalt from oil, uses of cement

32:25 – In the 20th century half of cement was produced by the US, now half is produced by China

33:19 – Nuclear energy consumption over time, big nuclear energy countries

33:57 – M.K. Hubbert + ‘carbon pulse’ graph (Figure 30)

34:36 – Nuclear Breeder Reactor

34:49 – The Carbon Pulse

35:30 – History of nuclear energy

36:17 – 1953 Energy Atomic Association brought up climate change

38:32 – Trump and Nuclear Energy

38:51 – France’s 20 year nuclear plant construction project

39:57 – The Great Simplification Animated Movie

40:16 – Energy Blind

41:25 – China and solar energy production + more info

41:32 – Cost of grid-connection of renewable energy in China

41:32 – Variability, intermittence

41:54 – 35-40% of Chinese wind and solar power has been bundled with coal

43:15 – Carbon intensity of GDP over time

44:01 – Material composition of tires

44:07 – Metal composition of smartphones

45:18 – Growth in number of ‘peasants’ + more info

45:54 – There are over 40 million artisanal miners in the world + *37% work in gold mining

46:17 – Spike in the price of gold in 2008

50:12 – The Shock of the Anthropocene, Christophe Bonneuil

51:08 – Most damaging materials come from the military: pesticides, fertilizers, aviation industry

52:10 – Half of emissions until the 1970s came from the US and the UK

53:09 – Creative Destruction

53:36 – Schumpeter

54:58 – Very few materials have decreased in consumption (asbestos, sheep’s wool)

55:33 – Kerosene lamps obsoletion

55:52 – Just the headlight of cars (60 kWh*1.5 billion cars) use as much oil as the economy of the 1900s

56:34 – Chris Keefer

56:58 – Electric Arc Furnaces

57:36 – Hydrogen Steel

58:14 – Hydrogen on TGS

59:45 – Diesel/electric motors are >10x more carbon efficient than steam engine

1:00:02 – Replacing a coal plant with solar panels reduces carbon intensity by >10x

1:00:31 – Jeremy Grantham, TGS Podcast

1:01:38 – Degrowth

1:03:30 – Jimmy Carter’s Energy Crisis Speech 1977

1:03:35 – 1972 Vice President of the European Commission, Henri Simonet’s, report on European Economic Growth

1:06:10 – Cuba after the fall of the USSR

1:08:18 – The Assembly Line, not commonly used today

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