Ep 232 | Charles Eisenstein
The Collapse of Our Mythology: Can Humanity Choose What’s Next?
Description
The world we live in today looks nothing like the world that was promised to our parents and grandparents. That promise was shaped by the idea that humans are separate from the rest of the natural world, and the right amount of cleverness would offer us endless protection and wealth. Today, as institutions hollow out and simply existing becomes more and more difficult, many of us are waking up to a different possibility: we are not separate at all. If we accept that our existence is interdependent with the existence of others, how might we live differently?
In this episode, Nate welcomes author and philosopher, Charles Eisenstein, for a long-requested conversation on the mythologies underneath civilization. For over two decades, Charles has argued that the crises defining modern life all trace back to the story of separation, the largely unspoken belief that each of us is an isolated self, competing against other selves and against a nature made of indifferent, exploitable resources. Charles traces how this story co-evolved with technology, language, and scale, and how quantitative thinking both extends and distorts our understanding of complex problems. He and Nate also discuss why Charles has come to believe that ecological and energy constraints will not force humanity onto a wiser path, rather that the choice has to be made consciously, person by person.
With the story of separation starting to fall apart, do we have any say in which stories will emerge in its place? What sort of path might humanity veer toward if we start living into the truths we know but have been keeping buried? And if each of us begins to embody that story in our day-to-day lives, through small actions, choices, and beliefs, could it possibly build into a larger change in consciousness?
About Charles Eisenstein
Charles Eisenstein is an American author, public speaker, and teacher whose work focuses on civilization, consciousness, money, and human cultural evolution. He graduated from Yale University in 1989 with a degree in Mathematics and Philosophy, and spent the following decade as a Chinese–English translator before turning to writing and speaking full-time.
He is the author of several books, including The Ascent of Humanity (2007), Sacred Economics (2011), The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible (2013), and Climate: A New Story (2018). His most recent book, The Coronation, examined the pandemic as a mirror of civilization’s relationship to control, fear, and uncertainty. His essays have circulated widely online, and he speaks and gives interviews frequently on themes spanning economics, ecology, and spirituality.
Show Notes & Links to Learn More
Download transcriptThe TGS team puts together these brief references and show notes for the learning and convenience of our listeners. However, most of the points made in episodes hold more nuance than one link can address, and we encourage you to dig deeper into any of these topics and come to your own informed conclusions.
Charles Eisenstein: Essays, Substack
- Books: The Ascent of Humanity, Sacred Economics, The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible, Climate: A New Story
Grab-and-Go Resources:
Go deeper on the show:
- The Great Simplification Ep 167: Francis Weller on grieving
- Reality Roundtable #17: from apathy to action
- Ep 213: Christine Webb on the myth of human exceptionalism
- Ep 230: Olivier Hamant on robustness
- Frankly #154: unordinary interventions
Foundations:
Next steps – what you can do: Join the Work That Reconnects Network, Join the Buy Nothing Project, Find a Repair Café, Start a Homegrown National Park, Create ritual
Resources by Timestamp:
02:54 – Foundational stories and mythologies of civilization
04:17 – Story of separation
05:20 – Nature–culture divide
05:30 – Human exceptionalism: The Great Simplification Ep 213
06:15 – Zero-sum thinking
06:26 – Idea of progress
06:54 – Datafication of reality
07:20 – Memetics
07:39 – Homo economicus, Rational utility maximization
08:15 – Technological utopianism
08:52 – Alienation from institutions
09:32 – Ishmael, Daniel Quinn
09:45 – September 11 attacks
09:58 – Takers and leavers
10:20 – Web of life
10:38 – The Ascent of Humanity
10:42 – Derrick Jensen, John Zerzan, Anarcho-primitivism
11:20 – Lewis Mumford
11:29 – Control of fire by early humans, Origin of language, Stone tools
12:02 – Neocortex
12:09 – Eukaryote, Horizontal gene transfer
12:29 – Division of labour, Social hierarchy
12:54 – Teleology
13:34 – Standardization, Abstraction
14:13 – Metaphysics
15:28 – Species-level rite of passage
15:36 – More-than-human predicament
15:46 – Story of interbeing
16:01 – Thich Nhat Hanh, Interbeing
16:20 – Dependent origination
17:07 – Soil health and human health
18:34 – Firefly decline
19:31 – Cable news and algorithmic feeds
19:59 – Loss aversion
20:13 – Shifting baselines
20:34 – Dislocation theory of addiction
20:59 – Pornography addiction, Compulsive shopping
22:01 – Depression
23:55 – Factory model of schooling
24:13 – Dunbar’s number
24:47 – David Sloan Wilson (The Great Simplification Ep 56), Multilevel selection, Reality Blind: Multi-Level Selection
25:28 – The Selfish Gene, Extended evolutionary synthesis, Reality Blind: The Agenda of the Gene
25:33 – Endosymbiosis, Epigenetics
27:27 – History of money
28:00 – Money as a supernormal stimulus, Reality Blind: Supernormal Stimuli
29:00 – Our economic system and musical chairs
29:11 – Gift economy
31:33 – Money created as interest-bearing debt, Reality Blind: How is Money Created?, The Great Simplification Ep 30
32:02 – Growth imperative
32:31 – Commodification of nature
32:41 – Sacred Economics
32:44 – The Myth of the Machine
32:51 – Economic superorganism (Superorganism explained in 7 minutes)
33:40 – Theory of change
34:07 – Moloch, Reality Blind: The Games People Play
35:35 – War metaphors: War on drugs, War on poverty, War on carbon
36:29 – Complex systems
37:15 – Conspiracy theories
37:38 – In-group and out-group
38:22 – Climate: A New Story
38:29 – Carbon tunnel vision
39:23 – Streetlight effect, McNamara fallacy
40:08 – Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Isaac Newton, David Hume
40:34 – Love as neurochemistry
41:29 – Nate’s Frankly on unordinary interventions
41:44 – Social capital, Internal rate of return
41:57 – Demonetization and living in the gift
45:48 – The Power Elite
46:10 – Kogi people on removing gold from the mountains
46:23 – Rivers that no longer reach the sea
47:22 – Hospice care
48:27 – Biophysical economics
49:52 – Ecological footprint
50:11 – Sustainability
51:51 – Energy return on investment (EROI), Reality Blind: The Energy Cost of Getting Energy
52:16 – Enclosure of the commons
54:49 – Money as a symbol
55:45 – Legitimacy crisis
56:49 – Negative capability
58:44 – Threshold guardian, Hero’s journey
59:05 – The Metacrisis, Top-down and bottom-up responses
59:26 – Global North and Global South
1:00:44 – Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning, the passage Charles paraphrases
1:02:06 – Psychedelic drugs
1:02:30 – Grief, The Great Simplification Ep 167
1:03:25 – Impermanence
1:04:38 – Continuing bonds
1:05:35 – Insect decline, Bird population decline
1:06:14 – When the Rituals Stop Working
1:06:48 – Ritual, Creating ritual
1:08:13 – Ancestor veneration
1:08:44 – Charles’s forthcoming book
1:09:18 – Fiat money, Performative utterance
1:09:36 – Fiat lux
1:10:48 – Bullshit Jobs
1:11:15 – Employee disengagement
1:12:09 – Olivier Hamant on robustness, Jazz improvisation, Debunking the idea of biological optimisation
1:16:34 – Adaptive function of fear
1:17:57 – Charles’s essays on AI: Intelligence in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction, The Staggering Implications of Nondeterministic AI, Virtual Intelligence
1:18:08 – Walter Benjamin, The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction
1:18:37 – Recorded music vs. live performance
1:19:08 – Emotional AI and pseudo-intimacy
1:19:33 – Narcissistic personality disorder, Microexpressions
1:20:15 – AI companions and risks
1:21:43 – Printing press
1:24:08 – Cognitive dissonance
1:26:35 – Intuition
1:26:50 – Wishful thinking
1:27:10 – Know thyself
1:29:36 – Cycle of violence
1:30:36 – Kogi people, Charles’s referenced quote: if you knew she could feel, you would stop
1:30:41 – Ciénaga Grande de Santa Marta restoration
1:31:06 – Objectification
1:31:34 – Intersubjectivity
1:33:10 – Consensus reality
1:34:35 – Parasocial interaction
1:35:20 – AI slop



