Ep 224 | Rob Hopkins
No More Dystopian Stories: How to See a Future Worth Living In
Description
Self-fulfilling prophecies; manifestations; the Oedipus Effect: Humanity has long had an intuition that the stories we tell ourselves the most are often the stories we make come true. Science has found more and more evidence to back this up, through both historical cultural analysis as well as unexpected neurological connections in our brains. If we fully accept this, then what sort of future are we telling with our current cultural narratives, and is there still time to write a new one?
In this episode, Nate welcomes Rob Hopkins, co-founder of the Transition Network and author of “How to Fall in Love with the Future,” for an exploration of what tips people over the edge and into action to build more livable futures, and what role imagination plays in cultural motivation and agency. Rob explains the neuroscience behind envisioning the future, explaining the link between memory and imagination, and how chronic stress and cortisol can shrink our capacity to picture the future. Drawing on research showing that creativity and imagination scores have been declining for decades, he argues that our collective inability to vividly picture a better future may be the deepest barrier to building one. Throughout the conversation, Rob and Nate wrestle with a central tension: how to be honest about the scale of the predicament while still cultivating the kind of longing that moves people to act, and what role grief, limits, and slowing down might play in that process.
In a culture that puts many of us in constant states of anxiety and stress, what happens to our ability to imagine and dream of the future? What would it take for more of us to feel, not just intellectually understand, that a lower-energy, more localized future could also be a more beautiful one, if only we plant the seeds for it to grow? And if the tools for building more local, resilient futures already exist, but the first step is to create a sense of longing for them, then what gap does that open up in each of our communities, today, to start putting these ideas into action?
About Rob Hopkins
Rob Hopkins is the co-founder of Transition Network and of Transition Town Totnes, and author of several books including “The Transition Handbook” and most recently, “How to Fall in Love with the Future: A Time Traveller’s Guide to Changing the World.” He is an Ashoka Fellow, has spoken at TED Global and at several TEDx events, and appeared in the 2015 French film phenomenon “Demain.”
He holds a PhD from the University of Plymouth as well as 2 Honoris Causas, and hosted 100 episodes of his podcast “From What If to What Next.” In November 2022 he was made an Honorary Citizen of Liège in Belgium. His collaborative music project with artist Mr Kit, “Field Recordings from the Future” is now available, and is being developed as a live show which will tour in 2026. His website is robhopkins.net.
Show Notes & Links to Learn More
Download transcriptThe TGS team puts together these brief references and show notes for the learning and convenience of our listeners. However, most of the points made in episodes hold more nuance than one link can address, and we encourage you to dig deeper into any of these topics and come to your own informed conclusions.
00:00 – Rob Hopkins, co-founder of the Transition Movement / Transition Network International, Totnes Community Builders, Ashoka Fellow
- Books: How to Fall in Love with the Future, From What Is to What If, The Transition Handbook
- Podcast: From What If to What Next
- Music Project: “Field Recordings from the Future”
02:55 – How to find common ground
04:50 – Grassroots movement
05:00 – Transition Network International
05:33 – Totnes, England, Permaculture (Rob’s 2 year fulltime permaculture course)
06:05 – Climate emergency, Energy security emergency
06:25 – Referenced quote
06:38 – Transition Culture blog
07:42 – Transition in ~50 countries: Local economy projects, Community energy companies, Community food projects
07:53 – Community-led affordable housing development in Totnes (more info)
08:21 – Luigi Russi – Everything Gardens, Schumacher College
10:17 – 12 steps of Transition
10:46 – Jean-Claude Mensch’s Ungersheim: 21 actions for the 21st century
11:11 – In Transition 2.0 (film)
12:05 – The Great Simplification
12:28 – Grenoble’s ecological administration, City-scale transition
13:04 – Nate’s Frankly about on a movie idea, The Day After (1983 nuclear-war film)
13:21 – Demain (Tomorrow) (2015 climate solutions film)
13:41 – An Inconvenient Truth (film)
14:46 – 39 affordable energy-efficient homes in Totnes, Community energy company, Local Entrepreneur Forum
15:32 – *Over half of all human CO2 emitted in the last 30 years
15:43 – Fossil fuel industry disinformation campaigns and money given to them
16:35 – Peak oil (more info) and Climate change
16:44 – The Party’s Over, The End of Suburbia
17:09 – Rise of fascism
17:29 – Limits to Growth, Post-growth
17:33 – 2008 financial crisis and COVID-19 recession
17:42 – Strait of Hormuz (more info)
17:55 – Economic contractions and Energy price increases in Europe
19:11 – UK 2000 fuel protests: Only three days worth of food in supermarkets
19:40 – Rob’s 2008 Book: The Transition Handbook: From Oil Dependency to Local Resilience
19:49 – *EU payments to Russia for fossil fuels from 2008-2022 and 2022-present
20:20 – Irish farmers’ tractor protests over energy prices
21:05 – Economic superorganism (Nate’s academic paper on such)
22:30 – Money as digital claims on biophysical reality
22:55 – Mordor economy
23:40 – The Metacrisis, Failure of cultural imagination
24:10 – George Monbiot, Naomi Klein, Amitav Ghosh
24:36 – Kyung Hee Kim, The Creativity Crisis, Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking, Divergent thinking, Newsweek 2010 coverstory: imagination declining as IQ rises
26:15 – Causes of decline in imagination: Decline of free unstructured play, Rise of screens, Standardized testing in schools
26:30 – From What Is to What If
26:42 – Nature-deficit: less time spent in the natural world
26:53 – Stress/trauma/anxiety and Cortisol, Hippocampus, and ~20% hippocampal shrinkage
27:08 – Imagination as a fundamental function of the hippocampus
27:46 – Discount rates
28:47 – Albert Einstein
29:50 – Process of imagination in human, Evolutionary origins
30:33 – Damon Gameau, 2040 (film) (The Great Simplification appearance)
30:55 – Evidence-based dreaming
31:20 – Blade Runner
31:32 – Paris Agreement: ~60% emissions cut for the Global North by 2036
31:50 – William Gibson: ”The future is already here, just not evenly distributed.”
32:07 – Utrecht cycling, Car-free neighborhoods in Germany, Liège, Belgium food belt
32:40 – Rasheedah Phillips, Black Quantum Futurism
33:10 – Negative worldviews and confirmation-driven doom spirals
34:36 – Manda Scott: Accidental Gods, Rupert Read: Thrutopia
36:25 – Rainer Maria Rilke: ”The future must enter into you long before it happens”
37:02 – Memories of the future: imagination and memory share neural pathways
38:10 – Rob’s Imagination Trainings
38:16 – Sense of agency from imagining the future, Frankly on agency
39:28 – Rasheedah Phillips, adrienne maree brown, Walidah Imarisha, Ruha Benjamin
39:58 – Mariame Kaba, We Do This ‘Til We Free Us
40:44 – Toxic positivity
42:12 – Greta Thunberg, Fridays for Future
43:07 – Permaculture course offerings, Oregon State online, asynchronous offering
43:54 – “I’ve been to the future. We won.”
44:09 – Extinction Rebellion, The Big One, Rob’s speech
45:49 – Temporal fluidity
46:23 – Linear, Newtonian time as a colonial construct
46:33 – Traditional African conceptions of time, Indigenous Australian deep time
47:10 – Clock time and time discipline
47:34 – Railway time, Bioregionalism
48:50 – Living wall (green wall)
50:19 – How to Fall in Love with the Future
50:30 – Beaver reintroduction and rewilding in England
50:57 – Dark triad traits: The Great Simplification Reality Roundtable & Frankly on such
53:34 – Elise Boulding, Quakerism, Peace studies
54:30 – We are more alike than we are unalike, Prefigurative politics
55:36 – Liège Food Belt (Ceinture Aliment-Terre Liégeoise)
56:17 – Pakistan’s rooftop solar boom after Trump’s China solar tariffs
57:21 – European decarbonization coupled with de-industrialization
58:38 – Mouans-Sartoux: 80% locally grown, 100% organic school meals
59:16 – Knock-on effects on the wider community’s eating habits
59:40 – Transition stories on Rob’s website
1:00:23 – Ruth Ben-Tovim, Town Anywhere
1:00:59 – Smell and memory: recalling ~10,000 odors
1:03:25 – Field Recordings from the Future
1:03:55 – Biosphere: Substrata (ambient music)
1:04:13 – Mr Kit, “Girl Walking on a Beach Wearing a Skirt”
1:05:12 – Field Recordings from the Future album on Bandcamp, Live shows, Immersive experience
1:07:01 – Mycelium materials research
1:07:16 – Circular economy, Doughnut economics
1:07:22 – Regenerative agriculture
1:07:43 – Our ~20 terawatt civilization (more info) and contracting energy throughput
1:08:16 – Loss aversion
1:08:23 – Jason Hickel and Dylan Sullivan (2024): decent living for 8.5 billion on 30% of current resources
1:08:55 – Public luxury in Copenhagen, Denmark
1:10:28 – Don DeLillo, Underworld
1:10:50 – Capitalism and the manufacture of desire
1:11:53 – Good Grief Network, Healthy Human Culture, Joanna Macy (The Great Simplification Reality Roundtable on The Work that Reconnects)
1:12:20 – Giving up flying for slow train travel
1:13:40 – Dr. Seuss’s 50-word constraint, Limits and creativity
1:13:53 – Improv and creative constraints
1:14:49 – “Guide to Staying Human” Frankly series
1:16:29 – Time-machine comic book with cartoonist Thomas Liera
1:17:46 – Planetary boundaries, Ecosystems unable to track climate change
1:18:23 – IPCC reports, Bad news and motivation
1:18:53 – From What If to What Next podcast, Solitaire Townsend
1:19:12 – The climate movement’s brilliant Act One, missing Act Two
1:20:09 – Malcolm X vs. Martin Luther King Jr., Just Stop Oil
1:20:28 – Black Panther Party free breakfast program and mutual aid
1:20:44 – Afrofuturism: Sun Ra, Parliament-Funkadelic, Octavia Butler, Samuel R. Delany
1:21:48 – Inner Transition (Sophy Banks and Hilary Prentice)
1:23:15 – The Art of Invitation courses
1:23:30 – Totnes Pound local currency
1:24:50 – The Time Traveller’s Gazette newsletter
1:25:32 – Positive News, Imagine5, Possible (We Are Possible)
1:26:58 – Offshore wind, Bicycle lanes, District heating, Co-housing, Ecological architecture
1:27:30 – Take a permaculture design course
1:28:23 – Transitioning from oil and gas industry, National oil companies (map) control about 88% of proven oil reserves
1:31:00 – Annaïg Plassard’s time-travel activism
1:31:10 – France’s Front Populaire (2024 elections)
1:32:45 – Rosa Parks and the following Montgomery Bus Boycott that led to the Civil Rights Act
1:33:23 – The Carbon Pulse, Possible future shapes of the Carbon Pulse, Future growth scenarios

